Jennie has posted a few times now on Liberal Conspiracy about thinking along the same lines as me, and has linked to me a couple of times, so here is a return of favour under similar circumstances. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation says we need at least £13,400 each to simply live and be above poverty. Jennie, on the other hand, contests this amount as ludicrously high when taking in to account the wider picture of global poverty.

In all honesty, on this subject I am torn. I agree completely with what Jennie is saying, she is spot on and the fanaticism that has gone on with poverty and these kinds of figures with the media and politicians is disconcerting. However isn't there also a place for these kinds of poverty figures in developing society?

The way I see it is that there is of course a minimum amount we need to live, and given that we are a country developed to the stage that is I don't believe that you can rule out basic rental costs of housing, nor basic electricity and gas. There has to be a figure that people can live on, understanding also that these kinds of costs such as rent and energy do decrease with multiple occupancy and the economics that can be found with group purchasing. Needless to say I don't really see that people *need* more than around £7k assuming no benefits or hand outs.

Does this mean they'll be happy, productive and socially stable people without a disproportionate over reliance on things such as healthcare? Of course not, and perhaps this is why there is some merit in recognising a socially ubiquitous poverty level that takes in to account the average populations need to not be "in the shit" while everyone else is "happy as Larry". Can we really quantify this? Yes, but certainly not right now as no-one is looking at it that way.

What I do think is that relative poverty is important. While it could be said that more children in the UK are better off than they were a decade ago when compared to real poverty levels, it's clear that their situation in comparison to the rest of the kids in society hasn't improved at all. Equally with others below the "poverty line" and in "fuel poverty" there is a need on the basis of social cohesion to not let parts of society fall too far behind the rest. It creates inequality, perceived or real, and from my perspective it doesn't take much more than feeling you're not getting the same opportunities as other people to lead you to frustration, to apathy, or worse to crime and the poverty of opportunity that comes with that mindset.

It's important to stay grounded, and Jennie is spot on...but it is also important to keep considering the societal impact of an economic situation where it's not just about the rich poor divide, but also simply the poor and moderately well off divide, and where such a difference left un-tackled can lead us.