Over on Liberal Conspiracy there has been an at times hostile debate surrounding feminism due to the claims of Sarah Palin, Republican VP Nominee, that she is one. Why is this controversial, and why has it started any such debate? Firstly she is someone that believes abortion is a sin, and would appear to wish to ban abortions from taking place in the US if she had her way. This provoked Laurie Penny to claim rather audaciously yet innocently that you cannot be a feminist if you oppose choice (with regards to abortion rights). Needless to say I disagreed, and a lot of cussing and hostile feminist verbatim later the debate hasn't moved on. Why not? Well it's because, as I have perhaps only more recently realised, that the debate is fairly irrelevant to feminism and wholly relevant to liberalism.

Arguing with a feminist on Liberal Conspiracy is curiously similar to arguing with a fundamentalist Christian just about anywhere else. They have their beliefs, they don't understand how you can question their beliefs and...of course...their beliefs are actually truths and facts that everyone else has as yet failed to adopt. This makes it very hard to discuss the very tricky subject of whether or not you can be a feminist while denying women the right to have an abortion.

Just so we're clear, at no point did it get so bad that feminists on Liberal Conspiracy thought that women that choose not to have abortions, or even women that thing having an abortion is a sin, are not feminists..it is purely the act of forcing other women to conform to your worldly view that suddenly drops you off the Christmas card list.

But is that an entirely fair analysis? I feel it isn't, and now is the time to frame this discussion. Let's take a hypothetical woman named Mary. She is a feminist in the sense most people may know one, she is about personal choice, pro-choice when it comes to abortions and wants equality for women as a gender. Then we have Jane, who is a carbon copy of Mary except she believes abortions are a sin...a sin that no-one should be able to carry out.

What is different about Jane, campaigning to stop abortions happen, that is different about Mary? Simply put, it's societal values. Mary has a value set that says women should be free to choose between abortion or carrying out the pregnancy, Jane on the other hand just can't stand this sin being legal. Yet somewhere along the line Mary has decided that Jane's societal values are wrong, just as Jane believes Mary's are. Does this affect the feminism of either person? Only in the eyes of the opponent.

Mary can't stand Jane not because Jane is making strictly anti-feminist statements but because Jane doesn't live inside her moral boundaries. Like wise Jane can't believe Mary's stance because Mary doesn't live inside her moral boundaries. Perhaps then neither will be willing to call the other a feminist, but this is nothing to do with anything but an interpretation over what are "correct" morals.

Now, the interesting part to me is that we already know Jane isn't liberal...a liberal wouldn't try to force other people to conform to their world view. But is Mary liberal? She is unwilling and unable to accept that Jane has a different world view that is based in honest belief, and goes to the extent of telling Jane what she can and cannot be on this Earth because she is unwilling and unable to accept that differing world view...she may even make throwaway claims about Jane's mortality. No, Mary isn't very liberal in this instance either.

What makes this idea even more interesting is if you abstract a unpopular "next stage" to the feminist movement, for example allowing women the choice to kill their offspring after they're born. I can't imagine many feminists from Liberal Conspiracy agreeing that such an act is in tune with feminism and would imagine all would oppose it, yet how would they feel if feminists that did agree with this homicide acceptance said to them that they were simply denying them choice and thus can't be feminists? I'd wager they would be unable to believe someone has tried to tell them what they are or not.

Again, this is because in such a conflict it is not feminism causing it...once again it would be differences in liberal ideals combined with a lack of ability to think liberally about diversity of beliefs.

So, you CAN be a feminist and be trying to legislate against abortion..and this is because you can be acting under a completely different social and moral structure to those that are pro-choice. If there is conflict it is because of that underlying structure and nothing else, and if you are trying to claim anyone can't be a feminist because they believe strongly in something you don't solely because of that underlying structure then you are ultimately a hypocrite that believes people should accept your view of the world without actually accepting anyone elses. They might not be your kind of feminist, but they've probably taken all of the other steps you have so it is unjustified to throw them off the train at this point.

Now, given that is over and done with, I wish feminists all the luck and any support in keeping up any fight against illiberal actions that conflict with me world view...I'll just be doing it while accepting and respecting the opposing party as a human being with a different moral underpinning.